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	<title>Comments on: Andy Worthington Discusses Guantánamo on Democracy Now!</title>
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		<title>By: Andy Worthington</title>
		<link>http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/06/23/andy-worthington-discusses-guantanamo-on-democracy-now/comment-page-1/#comment-42259</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Worthington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 21:53:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/?p=3753#comment-42259</guid>
		<description>Hey TD,
Took me until today to post this, and now, of course, the courtiers have moved on. So tell us again, what was your favorite Michael Jackson song?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey TD,<br />
Took me until today to post this, and now, of course, the courtiers have moved on. So tell us again, what was your favorite Michael Jackson song?</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Worthington</title>
		<link>http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/06/23/andy-worthington-discusses-guantanamo-on-democracy-now/comment-page-1/#comment-42258</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Worthington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 21:52:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/?p=3753#comment-42258</guid>
		<description>And the Talking Dog&#039;s reply to 22, above:

Andy:

Whether it be &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/26/sanfords-affair-sparks-de_n_221678.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Mark Sanford&lt;/a&gt; and his crying game in South America (I&#039;m not sure it&#039;s not going to prove to be &quot;THE Crying Game&quot;, btw), or my own state&#039;s esteemed former governor, or our former President or Senator Edwards, or the Republican clowns Ensign and Vitter, et al.... it&#039;s not the sex, it&#039;s the Narcissism.  And it&#039;s the Narcissism that drives policy: you have ego-maniacs with over-the-top self-opinions making policy that involves... self-aggrandizement and self-enrichment, and a courtier class all too willing to embrace them when they leave the revolving door... and that&#039;s just the elected ones.  

Don&#039;t really know how to combat it, other than to have respected institutions acting as counterbalances (you know: one of the functions the press was supposed to fulfill until it too stepped up to get outfitted for its courtier livery).  

Yes, our young &#039;uns is pretty smart, and pretty resourceful, because it seems clearer and clearer to me that they are going to have to be: the great circle of being is not advancing in a nice straight pretty line right now, but is going a bit retrograde...  not sure whether I more fear the likely economic collapse and social decay following it, or the less likely economic/social business as usual followed by the inevitable environmental catastrophes that will bring... best... stop...  now... or... prozac... will ...be... needed...

Barack is clearly very good at what he does-- which is get elected.  And he clearly wants to be elected once more; the thing is, he got elected because he was perceived as having a pair of cojones on the campaign trail; if he chooses to revert to Mr. Cautious now that he&#039;s elected (for which he&#039;s being criticized from the right on Iran and from all directions on health care), he may not get that chance (though the Mark Sanfords of the world may make it easier for him...) 

We&#039;ll see; we really do need another political party-- maybe a &quot;this is what the realistic options are so stop bullshitting about the rest of your Santa Claus and tooth fairy fantasies party&quot;...  not likely to be popular in societies that worship Santa and the Tooth Fairy, but our respective populaces need to be told to eat their vegetables while there&#039;s still time...  it is amazing, otherwise, how debased the discourse has become...  while we obsess about Tory MPs and their moat-cleanings...  I clean out my own moat, thanks!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And the Talking Dog&#8217;s reply to 22, above:</p>
<p>Andy:</p>
<p>Whether it be <a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/26/sanfords-affair-sparks-de_n_221678.html" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/06/26/sanfords-affair-sparks-de_n_221678.html?referer=');">Mark Sanford</a> and his crying game in South America (I&#8217;m not sure it&#8217;s not going to prove to be &#8220;THE Crying Game&#8221;, btw), or my own state&#8217;s esteemed former governor, or our former President or Senator Edwards, or the Republican clowns Ensign and Vitter, et al&#8230;. it&#8217;s not the sex, it&#8217;s the Narcissism.  And it&#8217;s the Narcissism that drives policy: you have ego-maniacs with over-the-top self-opinions making policy that involves&#8230; self-aggrandizement and self-enrichment, and a courtier class all too willing to embrace them when they leave the revolving door&#8230; and that&#8217;s just the elected ones.  </p>
<p>Don&#8217;t really know how to combat it, other than to have respected institutions acting as counterbalances (you know: one of the functions the press was supposed to fulfill until it too stepped up to get outfitted for its courtier livery).  </p>
<p>Yes, our young &#8216;uns is pretty smart, and pretty resourceful, because it seems clearer and clearer to me that they are going to have to be: the great circle of being is not advancing in a nice straight pretty line right now, but is going a bit retrograde&#8230;  not sure whether I more fear the likely economic collapse and social decay following it, or the less likely economic/social business as usual followed by the inevitable environmental catastrophes that will bring&#8230; best&#8230; stop&#8230;  now&#8230; or&#8230; prozac&#8230; will &#8230;be&#8230; needed&#8230;</p>
<p>Barack is clearly very good at what he does&#8211; which is get elected.  And he clearly wants to be elected once more; the thing is, he got elected because he was perceived as having a pair of cojones on the campaign trail; if he chooses to revert to Mr. Cautious now that he&#8217;s elected (for which he&#8217;s being criticized from the right on Iran and from all directions on health care), he may not get that chance (though the Mark Sanfords of the world may make it easier for him&#8230;) </p>
<p>We&#8217;ll see; we really do need another political party&#8211; maybe a &#8220;this is what the realistic options are so stop bullshitting about the rest of your Santa Claus and tooth fairy fantasies party&#8221;&#8230;  not likely to be popular in societies that worship Santa and the Tooth Fairy, but our respective populaces need to be told to eat their vegetables while there&#8217;s still time&#8230;  it is amazing, otherwise, how debased the discourse has become&#8230;  while we obsess about Tory MPs and their moat-cleanings&#8230;  I clean out my own moat, thanks!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Connie L. Nash</title>
		<link>http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/06/23/andy-worthington-discusses-guantanamo-on-democracy-now/comment-page-1/#comment-42230</link>
		<dc:creator>Connie L. Nash</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Jun 2009 19:07:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/?p=3753#comment-42230</guid>
		<description>Well, I was SHOCKED and so sad!  There seems to be so much good at core which is sweepingly being corrupted day by day. 

I worked hard today for this UN Day to honor and care for the Victims of Torture...see some of what I put together here - the TOP TWO on http://www.oneheartforpeace.blogspot.com

Thanks for providing the many items you do right ON TIME!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I was SHOCKED and so sad!  There seems to be so much good at core which is sweepingly being corrupted day by day. </p>
<p>I worked hard today for this UN Day to honor and care for the Victims of Torture&#8230;see some of what I put together here &#8211; the TOP TWO on <a href="http://www.oneheartforpeace.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.oneheartforpeace.blogspot.com?referer=');">http://www.oneheartforpeace.blogspot.com</a></p>
<p>Thanks for providing the many items you do right ON TIME!</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Worthington</title>
		<link>http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/06/23/andy-worthington-discusses-guantanamo-on-democracy-now/comment-page-1/#comment-40838</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Worthington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 08:24:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/?p=3753#comment-40838</guid>
		<description>My reply:

The Obama jokes are just embarrassing -- for him demeaning himself, and for the smug audience, and their response, once they realized where he&#039;d taken them. No wonder he let Cheney and the fearmongers take the initiative on Guantanamo ...

But this, I suppose, is politics. If he manages not to alienate the real people -- those millions and millions of ordinary voters -- his ability to please those in powerful positions will keep him popular where he thinks it counts. I guess the Democrats are in less danger than New Labour, here in the UK, which dismayed its base to such an extent that the actual party barely exists any more.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My reply:</p>
<p>The Obama jokes are just embarrassing &#8212; for him demeaning himself, and for the smug audience, and their response, once they realized where he&#8217;d taken them. No wonder he let Cheney and the fearmongers take the initiative on Guantanamo &#8230;</p>
<p>But this, I suppose, is politics. If he manages not to alienate the real people &#8212; those millions and millions of ordinary voters &#8212; his ability to please those in powerful positions will keep him popular where he thinks it counts. I guess the Democrats are in less danger than New Labour, here in the UK, which dismayed its base to such an extent that the actual party barely exists any more.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Worthington</title>
		<link>http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/06/23/andy-worthington-discusses-guantanamo-on-democracy-now/comment-page-1/#comment-40837</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Worthington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 08:23:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/?p=3753#comment-40837</guid>
		<description>And this from the Talking Dog:

Andy:

You know, the Iranians, who can only aspire to have a political system like ours, as fatally flawed as our respective nation&#039;s systems are, would assuage their feelings of personal powerlessness via poetry... and of course, opium.  Well, they&#039;ve finally had it...  there&#039;s hope for us all, methinks.  The free-market Stalinists are likely going to push our countrymen over the edge too... just you wait!  Or so I tell myself to avoid the need for prozac.

I looked at the Democracy Now! piece... I have problems hearing on my computer&#039;s faint volume, but I got the gist... my God-- it was right out of Dubya&#039;s looking under the chair for WMDs... if I were king, er, President, I would refuse to attend such events, and threaten to fire any member of my Administration who did attend them.  The regime and the 4th estate should just not be that chummy... it does give me the creeps.

Well, keep up the good work...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And this from the Talking Dog:</p>
<p>Andy:</p>
<p>You know, the Iranians, who can only aspire to have a political system like ours, as fatally flawed as our respective nation&#8217;s systems are, would assuage their feelings of personal powerlessness via poetry&#8230; and of course, opium.  Well, they&#8217;ve finally had it&#8230;  there&#8217;s hope for us all, methinks.  The free-market Stalinists are likely going to push our countrymen over the edge too&#8230; just you wait!  Or so I tell myself to avoid the need for prozac.</p>
<p>I looked at the Democracy Now! piece&#8230; I have problems hearing on my computer&#8217;s faint volume, but I got the gist&#8230; my God&#8211; it was right out of Dubya&#8217;s looking under the chair for WMDs&#8230; if I were king, er, President, I would refuse to attend such events, and threaten to fire any member of my Administration who did attend them.  The regime and the 4th estate should just not be that chummy&#8230; it does give me the creeps.</p>
<p>Well, keep up the good work&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Worthington</title>
		<link>http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/06/23/andy-worthington-discusses-guantanamo-on-democracy-now/comment-page-1/#comment-40834</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Worthington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 08:03:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/?p=3753#comment-40834</guid>
		<description>My reply:

Thanks for the comments, Beverley, and for the links. I’ve been writing for CounterPunch for two years, and could tell early on that it had a global reach when a friend of mine here in south London mentioned my name to a friend of hers in connection with &lt;em&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/the-guantanamo-files/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Guantánamo Files&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/em&gt;, and the friend replied that she’d just been reading an article by me on CounterPunch. It was an early sign, to me, of how the Internet was making the news international -- at least for those who read English.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My reply:</p>
<p>Thanks for the comments, Beverley, and for the links. I’ve been writing for CounterPunch for two years, and could tell early on that it had a global reach when a friend of mine here in south London mentioned my name to a friend of hers in connection with <em><a href="http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/the-guantanamo-files/" rel="nofollow">The Guantánamo Files</a></em>, and the friend replied that she’d just been reading an article by me on CounterPunch. It was an early sign, to me, of how the Internet was making the news international &#8212; at least for those who read English.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Worthington</title>
		<link>http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/06/23/andy-worthington-discusses-guantanamo-on-democracy-now/comment-page-1/#comment-40833</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Worthington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 25 Jun 2009 08:02:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/?p=3753#comment-40833</guid>
		<description>After I replied to Beverley, she sent the following message:

Any chance of you getting a regular spot on the BBC?  The more I listen to them, the more I discover they are little better than US media when it comes to providing all sides of the story, not just what the corporment (govt + corporations) want us to believe.  Their coverage on Iran this past week has been shamelessly one-sided.
 
Your website looks interesting; I will add it to my list of indy media to read.  May I also put in a good word for Black Agenda Report: www.blackagendareport.com  
This is an excellent site for info and critical analysis of Obama.  BAR editors have covered him since his Chicago beginnings.  Further, BAR does top notch coverage, calling out, and analysis of national and international issues.  Please check out this site and encourage others to do so.     Many thanks.
 
P.S.  Please spread the word in the UK about two other good indy news sources, www.dissidentvoice.org and www.counterpunch.org.  UKers are probably aware of counterpunch because Alex Cockburn is the editor.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After I replied to Beverley, she sent the following message:</p>
<p>Any chance of you getting a regular spot on the BBC?  The more I listen to them, the more I discover they are little better than US media when it comes to providing all sides of the story, not just what the corporment (govt + corporations) want us to believe.  Their coverage on Iran this past week has been shamelessly one-sided.</p>
<p>Your website looks interesting; I will add it to my list of indy media to read.  May I also put in a good word for Black Agenda Report: <a href="http://www.blackagendareport.com" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.blackagendareport.com?referer=');">http://www.blackagendareport.com</a><br />
This is an excellent site for info and critical analysis of Obama.  BAR editors have covered him since his Chicago beginnings.  Further, BAR does top notch coverage, calling out, and analysis of national and international issues.  Please check out this site and encourage others to do so.     Many thanks.</p>
<p>P.S.  Please spread the word in the UK about two other good indy news sources, <a href="http://www.dissidentvoice.org" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.dissidentvoice.org?referer=');">http://www.dissidentvoice.org</a> and <a href="http://www.counterpunch.org" rel="nofollow" onclick="pageTracker._trackPageview('/outgoing/www.counterpunch.org?referer=');">http://www.counterpunch.org</a>.  UKers are probably aware of counterpunch because Alex Cockburn is the editor.</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Worthington</title>
		<link>http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/06/23/andy-worthington-discusses-guantanamo-on-democracy-now/comment-page-1/#comment-40630</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Worthington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:01:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/?p=3753#comment-40630</guid>
		<description>Connie,
They&#039;re just a few minutes into the show ...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Connie,<br />
They&#8217;re just a few minutes into the show &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Worthington</title>
		<link>http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/06/23/andy-worthington-discusses-guantanamo-on-democracy-now/comment-page-1/#comment-40626</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Worthington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 13:55:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/?p=3753#comment-40626</guid>
		<description>And this was Bruce’s reply:

Andy, 

I started thinking about Gitmo prisoners as political prisoners when members of the &quot;coalition of willing&quot; were able to get their nationals out of Gitmo. Britain promptly set theirs free. If the Gitmo prisoners were the worst of terrorists, I doubt the Gov would release them. 

What&#039;s the old Bob Dylan song title, &quot;Only a pawn in their game&quot;. 

Keep up the good work, 

Bruce</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And this was Bruce’s reply:</p>
<p>Andy, </p>
<p>I started thinking about Gitmo prisoners as political prisoners when members of the &#8220;coalition of willing&#8221; were able to get their nationals out of Gitmo. Britain promptly set theirs free. If the Gitmo prisoners were the worst of terrorists, I doubt the Gov would release them. </p>
<p>What&#8217;s the old Bob Dylan song title, &#8220;Only a pawn in their game&#8221;. </p>
<p>Keep up the good work, </p>
<p>Bruce</p>
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		<title>By: Andy Worthington</title>
		<link>http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/06/23/andy-worthington-discusses-guantanamo-on-democracy-now/comment-page-1/#comment-40623</link>
		<dc:creator>Andy Worthington</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 13:55:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/?p=3753#comment-40623</guid>
		<description>This was my reply:

Hi Bruce, 
It&#039;s a good point, and I&#039;m having a good think about it, as it might explain what happens when prisoners who should be either prisoners of war, protected by the Geneva Conventions, or criminal suspects, to be put forward for trial, are caught in some nebulous legal netherworld in between, where they are part-PoWs, part-criminal suspects, but neither in any comprehensive sense. 
Best, 
Andy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was my reply:</p>
<p>Hi Bruce,<br />
It&#8217;s a good point, and I&#8217;m having a good think about it, as it might explain what happens when prisoners who should be either prisoners of war, protected by the Geneva Conventions, or criminal suspects, to be put forward for trial, are caught in some nebulous legal netherworld in between, where they are part-PoWs, part-criminal suspects, but neither in any comprehensive sense.<br />
Best,<br />
Andy</p>
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