Comments on: Guantánamo: Establishing A Context For The Definitive Prisoner List http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/03/06/guantanamo-establishing-a-context-for-the-definitive-prisoner-list/ Investigative journalist, author, filmmaker and Guantanamo expert Thu, 09 Feb 2012 15:40:36 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 By: Connie L. Nash http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/03/06/guantanamo-establishing-a-context-for-the-definitive-prisoner-list/comment-page-1/#comment-32933 Connie L. Nash Fri, 06 Mar 2009 19:18:47 +0000 http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/?p=1564#comment-32933 ACTION suggestion: I just sent the URL to the last four columns here with their headings to 60 groups I regularly send items easily missed. Next, I plan to place the same in 60 more Blog/Website Comments. Third, I plan to "peddle" this material for free to legislators near and far by car, foot, bike, bus, plane perhaps and mail it all over the place. One action I've done with such material is to set-up an appointment with legislator- prepare a photo book with key sections & photographs and take the legislator through this look into the US inhumanity to others...step by step - finding the connections, how much is known by the hearer. Leaving the book and/or other items with the legislator or her staff. The time is perfect with this definitive list done!!! And also with Supreme Court acting on al-Marri's case, etc. etc,... Of course, you will find your own perfect action. Thanx so much to Andy & the others who've made our Actions so much easier!!! Connie L. Nash ACTION suggestion: I just sent the URL to the last four columns here with their headings to 60 groups I regularly send items easily missed. Next, I plan to place the same in 60 more Blog/Website Comments. Third, I plan to “peddle” this material for free to legislators near and far by car, foot, bike, bus, plane perhaps and mail it all over the place.

One action I’ve done with such material is to set-up an appointment with legislator- prepare a photo book with key sections & photographs and take the legislator through this look into the US inhumanity to others…step by step – finding the connections, how much is known by the hearer. Leaving the book and/or other items with the legislator or her staff.

The time is perfect with this definitive list done!!! And also with Supreme Court acting on al-Marri’s case, etc. etc,…

Of course, you will find your own perfect action. Thanx so much to Andy & the others who’ve made our Actions so much easier!!!

Connie L. Nash

]]> By: Frances Madeson http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/03/06/guantanamo-establishing-a-context-for-the-definitive-prisoner-list/comment-page-1/#comment-32928 Frances Madeson Fri, 06 Mar 2009 15:29:36 +0000 http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/?p=1564#comment-32928 Thank you for providing the context for the definitive prisoner list. For those of us who have been paying attention all along, with an ever increasing admiration and appreciation for your intellect and personal sacrifice, it is an important footnote. For the others, for whom an understanding of the scope of your achievement has not yet fully dawned, it highlights and underscores the value of your singular accomplishment. It was the road not traveled, possibly never to be traveled, until you put one foot in front of the other and traversed it, one incisive article at a time. These are not ephemeral footprints in the snow, sand or mud. The record is indelible and will endure in the annals of justice, or more to the point, injustice. Thank you for providing the context for the definitive prisoner list. For those of us who have been paying attention all along, with an ever increasing admiration and appreciation for your intellect and personal sacrifice, it is an important footnote. For the others, for whom an understanding of the scope of your achievement has not yet fully dawned, it highlights and underscores the value of your singular accomplishment. It was the road not traveled, possibly never to be traveled, until you put one foot in front of the other and traversed it, one incisive article at a time. These are not ephemeral footprints in the snow, sand or mud. The record is indelible and will endure in the annals of justice, or more to the point, injustice.

]]> By: Andy Worthington http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/03/06/guantanamo-establishing-a-context-for-the-definitive-prisoner-list/comment-page-1/#comment-32925 Andy Worthington Fri, 06 Mar 2009 09:50:31 +0000 http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/?p=1564#comment-32925 Hi Chris, I'm not sure. When I read Steve Coll's excellent "Ghost Wars" -- which I understand Obama has been reading! -- the overriding impression was that a parade of unhinged old men had no idea how much they were being manipulated by their closest allies in the Middle East/Central Asia; namely, the Saudis and the Pakistanis. So, for example, all those billions of dollars of funding for the mujahideen in the '80s were administered by the Pakistanis with little US oversight, and the result was that the virulently anti-American Gulbuddin Hekmatyar got the lion's share, while Ahmed Shah Massoud got virtually nothing (as a quick aside, I do think that America's failure to support Massoud changed the face of history. Clinton didn't get it, and nor did George W. He only finally approved help and funding for Massoud on September 4, 2001, five days before Massoud was assassinated). So my feeling about the airlift is that it came directly from Pakistani pressure to get the generals and spooks out of Kunduz before a massacre took place, which I'm sure saved some key personnel from General Dostum's Convoy of Death. As for the terror threat, well, yes, I believe it's overblown, and that no one's interests are served by having to trust the intelligence services without being able to challenge, in some meaningful way, the extent to which they're genuinely capable, and the extent to which they're paranoid. And of course, it's horribly counter-productive -- and morally corrosive -- to react to a perceived threat by endorsing imprisonment without charge or trial, undermining the Convention Against Torture, implementing house arrest and the use of secret evidence and Special Advocates. I could go on, but essentially, here in the UK, we should have learned from the Irish conflict, and should be acutely aware that we're repeating the same horrible mistakes. On every level, the true debate has been muddied, particularly, I think, by viewing all jihad as terrorism against the West, by viewing all training camps as being related to al-Qaeda, by accepting evidence obtained through torture as reliable, and by what I call "guilt by mosque": a failure to comprehend that, in what are often liminal places where Muslim immigrants on the margins of British society gather, simply knowing people -- or even flirting on the edges of discourse about violent jihad -- is not the same thing as terrorism. Best, Andy Oh, and this is Seymour Hersh on the airlift (in Jan 02): http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2002/01/28/020128fa_FACT Hi Chris,
I’m not sure. When I read Steve Coll’s excellent “Ghost Wars” — which I understand Obama has been reading! — the overriding impression was that a parade of unhinged old men had no idea how much they were being manipulated by their closest allies in the Middle East/Central Asia; namely, the Saudis and the Pakistanis. So, for example, all those billions of dollars of funding for the mujahideen in the ’80s were administered by the Pakistanis with little US oversight, and the result was that the virulently anti-American Gulbuddin Hekmatyar got the lion’s share, while Ahmed Shah Massoud got virtually nothing (as a quick aside, I do think that America’s failure to support Massoud changed the face of history. Clinton didn’t get it, and nor did George W. He only finally approved help and funding for Massoud on September 4, 2001, five days before Massoud was assassinated).
So my feeling about the airlift is that it came directly from Pakistani pressure to get the generals and spooks out of Kunduz before a massacre took place, which I’m sure saved some key personnel from General Dostum’s Convoy of Death.

As for the terror threat, well, yes, I believe it’s overblown, and that no one’s interests are served by having to trust the intelligence services without being able to challenge, in some meaningful way, the extent to which they’re genuinely capable, and the extent to which they’re paranoid. And of course, it’s horribly counter-productive — and morally corrosive — to react to a perceived threat by endorsing imprisonment without charge or trial, undermining the Convention Against Torture, implementing house arrest and the use of secret evidence and Special Advocates. I could go on, but essentially, here in the UK, we should have learned from the Irish conflict, and should be acutely aware that we’re repeating the same horrible mistakes.
On every level, the true debate has been muddied, particularly, I think, by viewing all jihad as terrorism against the West, by viewing all training camps as being related to al-Qaeda, by accepting evidence obtained through torture as reliable, and by what I call “guilt by mosque”: a failure to comprehend that, in what are often liminal places where Muslim immigrants on the margins of British society gather, simply knowing people — or even flirting on the edges of discourse about violent jihad — is not the same thing as terrorism.
Best,
Andy
Oh, and this is Seymour Hersh on the airlift (in Jan 02):
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2002/01/28/020128fa_FACT

]]> By: Andy Worthington http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/03/06/guantanamo-establishing-a-context-for-the-definitive-prisoner-list/comment-page-1/#comment-32924 Andy Worthington Fri, 06 Mar 2009 09:49:30 +0000 http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/?p=1564#comment-32924 Andy Thanks for the reply. Re the US being "played" by the crafty Pakistanis, aren't we past giving the US the benefit of the doubt that once again their $billion intelligence service got it pathetically wrong? We know the lengths the US has had to go to hide ISI funding of the alleged 911 terrorists - could they really have been caught out again so soon? Is it not more likely that the US had their own vested interest in ensuring that their (manufactured and funded) mujahideen mates were shuttled into Pakistan in order to carry on the farce of the "war against terror"? After all, if the Northern Alliance had been allowed to clean them all up properly who would be left for us westerners to be scared of? Am hugely impressed by the amount of work you have put into researching your book. As you can probably tell, I am very cynical of the threat that fundamentalist Muslims are supposed to pose to the free and right thinking western world (liquid bomb plotters with no passports etc.). Would love to hear your personal insight into how much is genuine threat and how much is just scaring the crap out of the tax payer. On another topic, great to see the mainstream press trumpeting "inside job" when it comes to evil Pakistan and the Sri Lankan cricketers, but the same concept dismissed as fantasy (and worse) when it comes to US/Britain/Australia potentially engaging in same. Regards, Chris. Andy
Thanks for the reply.
Re the US being “played” by the crafty Pakistanis, aren’t we past giving the US the benefit of the doubt that once again their $billion intelligence service got it pathetically wrong? We know the lengths the US has had to go to hide ISI funding of the alleged 911 terrorists – could they really have been caught out again so soon? Is it not more likely that the US had their own vested interest in ensuring that their (manufactured and funded) mujahideen mates were shuttled into Pakistan in order to carry on the farce of the “war against terror”? After all, if the Northern Alliance had been allowed to clean them all up properly who would be left for us westerners to be scared of?
Am hugely impressed by the amount of work you have put into researching your book. As you can probably tell, I am very cynical of the threat that fundamentalist Muslims are supposed to pose to the free and right thinking western world (liquid bomb plotters with no passports etc.). Would love to hear your personal insight into how much is genuine threat and how much is just scaring the crap out of the tax payer.
On another topic, great to see the mainstream press trumpeting “inside job” when it comes to evil Pakistan and the Sri Lankan cricketers, but the same concept dismissed as fantasy (and worse) when it comes to US/Britain/Australia potentially engaging in same.
Regards, Chris.

]]> By: Andy Worthington http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/03/06/guantanamo-establishing-a-context-for-the-definitive-prisoner-list/comment-page-1/#comment-32923 Andy Worthington Fri, 06 Mar 2009 09:48:50 +0000 http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/?p=1564#comment-32923 Hi Chris, Good point. I mentioned it in my book -- and found it quite shocking at the time -- but I guess it hit a brick wall because it was part of the secrets of foreign policy i.e. part of the US being "played" by their Pakistani allies. For the record, bin Laden and senior al-Qaeda figures weren’t in Kunduz, of course, but their escape from Tora Bora was another US failure (although one that was more fully reported). Also, reports at the time stated that hard-core al-Qaeda fighters were shooting deserters in Kunduz and were desperate for martyrdom, so it seems probable that those who were airlifted were, in particular, Pakistani military and intel personnel who were aiding the Taliban, plus whoever could get on the escape vehicles. Best, Andy Hi Chris,
Good point. I mentioned it in my book — and found it quite shocking at the time — but I guess it hit a brick wall because it was part of the secrets of foreign policy i.e. part of the US being “played” by their Pakistani allies. For the record, bin Laden and senior al-Qaeda figures weren’t in Kunduz, of course, but their escape from Tora Bora was another US failure (although one that was more fully reported). Also, reports at the time stated that hard-core al-Qaeda fighters were shooting deserters in Kunduz and were desperate for martyrdom, so it seems probable that those who were airlifted were, in particular, Pakistani military and intel personnel who were aiding the Taliban, plus whoever could get on the escape vehicles.
Best,
Andy

]]> By: Andy Worthington http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/2009/03/06/guantanamo-establishing-a-context-for-the-definitive-prisoner-list/comment-page-1/#comment-32922 Andy Worthington Fri, 06 Mar 2009 09:47:48 +0000 http://www.andyworthington.co.uk/?p=1564#comment-32922 Here’s an interesting exchange: Hi Andy It is frequently claimed that Bin Laden and co escaped from Tora Bora through the mountains due to a lack of adequate US resources on the ground to stop them. Also, the Guantánamo Bay prisoners are routinely described as being "the worst of the worst". I presume that you are aware of the so-called "airlift of evil": www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3340165 My question is why there has not been more coverage given to the likelihood that the really hard core foreign fighters were flown out to freedom whilst the US turned a blind eye and any poor sods left behind must have been low level players? Obviously I understand why there would be little mainstream press coverage of this, but it seems to be something that the poor sods left in Guantánamo Bay could be making more of? Interested in hearing your thoughts. Regards, Chris Eggleston Here’s an interesting exchange:

Hi Andy
It is frequently claimed that Bin Laden and co escaped from Tora Bora through the mountains due to a lack of adequate US resources on the ground to stop them. Also, the Guantánamo Bay prisoners are routinely described as being “the worst of the worst”. I presume that you are aware of the so-called “airlift of evil”:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3340165
My question is why there has not been more coverage given to the likelihood that the really hard core foreign fighters were flown out to freedom whilst the US turned a blind eye and any poor sods left behind must have been low level players? Obviously I understand why there would be little mainstream press coverage of this, but it seems to be something that the poor sods left in Guantánamo Bay could be making more of?
Interested in hearing your thoughts.
Regards,
Chris Eggleston

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